Let’s talk story about Honolulu and some of the neat things happening here in Hawaii.     Home l Privacy l 15th Annual Honolulu Festival （2009） Feature Interview with Manzo Nomura Our special interview features Manzo Nomura, Kyogen Master, who performed at the 15th Annual Honolulu Festival in both Daidengaku and Tenshumonogatari with actress Keiko Matsuzaka. Our discussion evolved around topics such as his performance in Hawaii, his role in preserving Japan's art and culture of Kyogen and his other projects. --- What was it like performing on stage at the Honolulu Festival? In a normal situation, we reserve a theatre exclusively for our performance. But this time we were in a huge convention center surrounded by many booths and activities. There were people scurrying around everywhere. Groups took turns to perform on stage, one by one, right? This was a unique experience for me. There was a different kind of tension that we usually don't have. Since Tenshumonogatari is a theatrical performance, I am wondering if it is going to be appreciated by the audience as it is performed in such a hustling and bustling area. There's a feeling of insecurity, and at the same time, a feeling of confidence, "we can do it." There is the desire to succeed. In the Japanese language we say "tachiai shobu" which means "a charge and attack kind of match." It's like a shoot-out, we get up and fight! There is that kind of tension. Also, so many guests came to watch our performance. Many of the spectators did not understand Japanese. Yet they all remained and appreciated our performance. I felt great and satisfied because the audience was happy. I felt this way about both Tenshumonogatari and Daidengaku. It felt great! I guess those three words explain it all. --- Was there some preparation that was unique to Hawaii in comparison to other performances? I guess you could say that we prepared something special for Tenshumonogatari. We began our performance by saying "Aloha!" (Laughter) In Daidengaku we used the word "Humuhumunukunukuapua'a," the state fish of Hawaii. We also wore leis with our costumes. We try to blend in the local culture and their language with our own culture in some way when we perform abroad. We can do it because Kyogen has comedy elements. --- You mention comedy, are you currently collaborating with a comedian? Yes, I have been collaborating with Kiyotaka Nanbara who is Nan-chan of the stand-up comedy duo Utchan Nanchan. Several years ago, Nan-chan and his group wanted to challenge the art of Kyogen on a television program. My brother Mannojo, who is no longer with us, taught them Kyogen for the television show. The program ended at that, but my brother and Nanchan kept in touch. They thought, "Let's put some comedy acts in Kyogen, it would be fun to create a new genre that is contemporary, a combination of Kyogen and comedy." They were working on it when my brother passed away. But Nan-chan's passion for this project did not falter. He asked me if I could continue with him. It's been four years since we've been working together to create this new genre. We'd like for everyone to see it. It's fun and quite interesting. Nan-chan is serious about spreading this art to the world. I believe he will someday bring it to Hawaii. (Laughter) It's really funny. You will laugh into convulsions! You will split your sides laughing! --- There is your art from the past and then there is the new, how do you plan on making it into one? Kyogen is about events that happen in daily life. It is about human failure. They may be shortcomings or weaknesses. Yet when you reverse it inside out, they may be strengths. All of this is done through laughter. It is the oldest form of comedy in Japan. But there may be those who aren't comfortable with it because the language used is classical and old, or because the pace is a lot slower compared to today's stand-up comedy. What is most important is that we perform the real Kyogen first. Then with a very similar plot, the performers will replace the story line with contemporary people and perform it as it would appear in modern times. We use Kyogen's gestures and technique and add contemporary comedy. Recently I used a slipper as a prop, slapping it around! (Laughter) I'm not trying to ridicule today's form of comedy, but there is much more to comedy than simply making fun of people, saying vulgar things, or seeing which character can act the strangest or wildest. There are elements of comedy that are set in the minds of the Japanese people. These elements are universal. We don't want to destroy these forms of expression, old and new. The world of Kyogen continues to develop the imagination of each person. We shouldn't destroy the royal principles of comedy but rather fuse the new with the old. What Nan-chan does is include dance and music from all over the world. He includes many forms of entertainment. Kyogen is a form of classical entertainment that starts from nothing and allows the human mind to imagine and see things. The art is broadminded. It's like having a pot full of ingredients. The pot could be yaminabe (pot of anything that you want). No matter what you put into the pot, you wonder, "What's in this pot? It's good. It's really good." And that is how the art spreads. I think that because of this nature, Kyogen will continue to go through evolution. --- We thought you were discussing Kyogen's techniques and rules of conduct with other performers… I am discussing the nature of the art, technique, and its style of costume. The result will be nothing more than the comedians of today challenging the old classics if we were to simply remove the contemporary style. That is what it will end up as. What makes our genre interesting and fun is that the artist goes back and forth between the old form and the contemporary form of comedy. We have a subtitle for our work. We call it, "If Kyogen and contemporary comedy were to get married." The two may quarrel and then make up, similar to an interesting married couple. One moment you think, "That couple just doesn't seem to click." Then the next minute, "Hey, they seem to really hit it off together." That's how we would like everyone to think and laugh along with us. --- The Izumi School of Kyogen has a rich and traditional history of 300 years. Are there things that cannot be changed and those that can be changed within the 300 years of art and culture? To draw a line between things that we cannot change and things that can be changed…that is a difficult question. It depends on the head of our school at the time. The person who is responsible at the time will decide. The easiest way to explain this is that there are certain things that we should not change. We consistently need to ask ourselves, "What is it that we are trying to convey with our art that we have perpetuated?" We must always keep that thought close to our hearts. What is it that we want our guests to feel and experience from our performance? We cannot change that experience. It would be terrible if we did. We may change the script or the movements from time to time. So does that mean that we can change our costumes to western clothes? Now that's a hard one. It might be okay to change the clothes as an experiment but what if I was to decide, "Kyogen will be done in western costumes from now on under my leadership." Does this really make sense? I'm sure that the audience would question us as well. That is probably something that we cannot change. Okay, here are other examples. Should we speed up the pace in which we say our dialogue? Or because the classical words are hard to understand, should we change it to contemporary Japanese? These too are difficult to change. The language is constantly changing, from one era to another. However, there are certain words and phrases that we need to preserve. But on the other hand, there are certain words and phrases that should be changed slightly so that the audience will enjoy our performance more. So when you look at the script books from our ancestors, there are areas where paper has been pasted over the original script and new dialogue has been rewritten. Other areas have red lines drawn through the old script. It has been deleted. All of us have done this. What I can say for sure is that we have preserved what our ancestors have passed on to us, the spirit of the art and the strict disciplines of training. But we also have what we refer to in our world of entertainment as "our joyous spirit" or "the desire to live positively." That is how we continue to express our art. History is not something that is created all of a sudden. It is passed down from one generation to another. Our school has a history of 300 years but the art of Kyogen has been in existence for 600 years. And there was classical art even before that. And if we search deeper, it is endless. We continue to perform our art always thinking of what humans need in order to live in happiness. --- So you have the right to change whatever you want to in your school? I can change what I want to based on the school of Manzo Nomura, during my reign. I might be beaten up after I die. There is always that fear…(Laughter) My older brother used to say the same thing. Some leaders may not change anything and just preserve the old because of that fear. Then you will be criticized and be told, "Our school collapsed because you didn't change anything!" So you will get beaten up for that too. Once we collapse, that is the end. If you change too much, then you will be told, "You stupid, what were you thinking? You messed it all up!" You need to evaluate the degree of change, what you feel is proper for your own school and what you feel is best for the bigger picture in your form of "art or entertainment." You need to think of all the choices of wheels that will fit on your cart and decide what is best since you are in the position to change things. --- There must be a lot of pressure on being the ninth generation Manzo Nomura representing a history of 300 years. There was a lot of pressure the first year after I was named to succeed the former Manzo Nomura. I felt like I was going to die. The people around me said that I acted like somebody else, not like myself. They could see it in the way I spoke and the look in my eyes. Getting used to something can also be used in a bad way. But time is an incredible thing. You get used to the new name and position with time. As we mentioned before, "What do we throw away and what do we keep?" There are things that we need to make prompt decisions on and things that we can wait on. The ability to decide is based on your experience. There may be those who will doubt some of the decisions that I have made, to perform Daidengaku, Tenshumonogatari with Keiko Matsuzaka, or my collaboration with Nan-chan. But I am able to reflect refreshingly on my core occupation by challenging different things. I can reflect, "This is a good thing to add," or, "I shouldn't go any further than this." There are so many different ways of thinking. It makes me realize once again how important experience is. --- Keiko Matsuzaka mentioned the other day that she feels very different when she is on stage with you compared to when she is performing with others in her regular work. She feels calmness. Why do you think she feels that way? Well, it's probably because I'm not aggressive or pushy compared to other actors. Classical art involves strict training. Staying motionless is a discipline. To be quiet and to remain motionless for long periods of time is considered a common discipline. You cannot quiver when you get on stage. Even a slight movement will impact the people around you. There are times that you may feel insecure inside. I cannot always be calm and stable. --- Back to Daidengaku, can you talk more about that? Daidengaku is originally a Shinto ritual. It is a ceremony and has deep meaning. But if we only purse that part of it, the people watching it will not be entertained. They won't enjoy it. Daidengaku needs to have the capacity to appeal to the current audience in order for the performance to succeed in today's world. I wonder how long ago that was, probably around 15-20 years ago, that it was first performed by mainly professional actors. It was danced very properly and choreographed beautifully. Gradually, there were requests to have it performed in many places. As I explained before, we began to adapt and blend in the local culture of the region we were performing at. Then we got the local citizens involved. The model or form that we used was very beautiful. Then we broke it down once and then gradually built on to it. Perhaps the form may have been distorted a little bit. However, we play with it, test it and expand it. This is the situation we are in. We can tighten it up a bit if we decide to. The reason, the meaning, the core essence of why we created it is very solid. So as long as there are people who understand that, we can add on, expand, take away, we can do anything. I am not saying that I am the one putting it all together, but the first person that appears in the play, the leader of Daidengaku who is known as "Taaruji"(head of the land), is my role. Even if I were not in that role, I have been involved ever since my older brother Nomura Mannojo passed away so I can do it up to a certain point, talk about the local citizens who volunteer, and the involvement of professionals and semi-professionals. We can coordinate the whole project smoothly with me at the head of this pyramid. That is why the leader's role is a very important element. --- What do you think the future holds for Daidengaku and Tenshumonogatari?  In the next 5 years?  10 years?  What sort of plans do you have for the future? Daidengaku has a history of almost 20 years. In the 20 years there have been many changes. Perhaps it needs to get back to its origin. We need to revisit the Shinto rituals and its true meaning. I want those that are involved to reevaluate the project. Once again we will increase the participation of the local citizens and increase the entertainment. I guess you could say that it will be a renewal. I believe that it is time for Daidengaku to do this. In regards to Tenshumonogatari, Keiko Matsuzaka's opinions are very strong, so I will attach myself to her like kobanzame (shark's sucker fish)…(Laughter) That's a joke of course but I envision it to become a complete and proper play performance at some time. It began as a reading, it then became a narrated play, and then a complete play. We may start taking away the things we added along the way and realize that perhaps it is best to be a reading. (Laughter) I want to support her as best as I can because she is a passionate person leading this performance. I may make suggestions that "perhaps we should do it this way." I might say that. It is a good way of going back and forth. It is good tension. There will be great variety in Tenshumonogatari. Nothing will be final as we go one way and then the other. That is interesting. The actors won't get bored. --- There's still more to do. The form or structure will change in many ways. We look forward to it. Thank you very much for sharing such interesting and wonderful stories with us. Manzo, playing Taaruji (head of the land) The dances are performed in front of Keiko Matsuzaka and Manzo. Matsuzaka's daughters Monet and Marisa act in Tenshumonogatari as ladies in waiting for the demon. Manzo portrays Touroku in Tenshumonogatari. His dignified voice can be heard across the performance area. Manzo Nomura Izumi School Kyogen Master. The second son of Man. His father is also his master. He succeeded as 9th generation Manzo Nomura in 2005 and became the master of the family's head house. He performs in Japan and overseas. Not only are his performances from the classics but they also include new forms of Noh and Kyogen, contemporary plays and movies. 　 Related article: Feature Article: Daidengaku and Tenshumonogatari Related article: Interview with Kyogen Master Man Nomura Related article: Interview with Actress Keiko Matsuzaka

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